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Shadow Step & Rogue’s Future in Arena
December 17th, 2007 by Ziss ·
Ziss: Just got my ass handed to me by Warglaives ShS Rogue 4 games straight. He was able to drop me to 47% with 1 CS and with that type of damage, I’m sure the selected few will excel with ShS next patch. (Dec. 20)
As many of you already know, the recently favored AR/Prep spec for Rogue is being nerfed by removing Adrenalin Rush from Preparation. Many Rogues are left wondering where to go from here, and some looked towards the newly buffed Shadow Step as the way out.
To help us answer this question, let’s take a brief look at Arena history. At the start of Season 1, the focus of Arena was almost all 5v5. With Blizzard backing the bracket via tournament and international competition, there was no reason to look else where. Everyone started playing 5v5 and used it as a rule-of-thumb in determining skill. You would often hear players that lost in 2v2 or 3v3 say “Play in a bracket that matters!” to the opposing team.
This period was the darkest for Rogues. Every team was running Warriors as melee DPS using crafted tier 1 or 2 Blacksmith weapons and gathered 4 pieces Arena armor in few weeks. Rogues on the other hand was stuck using the precious points on weapons while wearing blues socketed with full 12 Stam gems just to survive the barrage of Warriors in 5v5, often with another Warrior on their team.
Noktyn and Nitrana from Team Pandemic summed it up well during Season 1:
“I want to talk about class compositions and how much it really bugs me that rogues just don’t fit into groups as well as a lot of other classes. I’m going to use our roster’s rogue as an example – Nitrana. Nitrana has played a rogue since he started WoW, always learning everything he can about the class, doing whatever it takes to win in PvP, using any cooldown, item, skill or anything that will give him an edge. The guy is amazing and I’m glad he is a part of our roster, however this is WoW’s major flaw: versus a lot of higher tier groups he simply isn’t worth running just because of his class. As I’m sure some people have noticed, when Reznap is in our group we have a lot more success and I’m just going to say it now, as our team’s leader, that it has nothing to do with a skill difference—it’s simply a class difference… ”
“The health difference between Nitrana and Reznap is very significant – a whopping 2k+ difference in HP, which is massive. Reznap can literally tank the frontload and we win shortly after almost every time… ” (This was back when most players used all 12 Stam gems)
“they need to gives rogues a buff that works like enrage where if you attack them there is a downside to it, or if they feel that damage is too high in the game already they can give them a blessed resilience type ability. Basically, there needs to be a bonus the rogue gets to being assisted on because right now they are one of the easiest classes to kill in 5v5s and there is absolutely no drawback whatsoever for assisting on them. This needs to change. Overall, I’m happy with the arena so far, but a few minor tweaks could make it even more amazing.”
-Noktyn (full article)
“If I were to describe the 5v5 arena class roles to someone who has never played the game, I can guarantee that person would never consider playing a rogue… EVER… ”
“At 70, stunlocks aren’t nearly as powerful, because it doesn’t force your opponents into a defensive mode. Rogues at 70 are forced into survival gear sets, because they’re so easily forced down. In survival gear sets a rogue’s attacks aren’t hitting for nearly as hard as they could be… ”
-Nitrana (full article)
Not only until the very end of S1 before Rogues started having their placement in Arena for 2v2 and 3v3. (remember the first lineup in WSVG was Warrior/Mage/Paladin, no Rogues) So why are Rogues so popular now in 2v2, 3v3, and hanging in 5v5 as well? A couple fundamental Rogue styles evolved from S1.
Style one - Everyone adopted Maces. With all the fights lasting so much longer than back at 60 (remember Ambush > Backstab > Eviscerate anyone?), it’s more and more important to gain a time advantage on your target. Simply put, if your target is stunned, it won’t be doing damage, and most of the Arena fights with healers involved are decided on who dishes out more damage over a long period of time. Deep Combat was the answer to this and because the amazing sustained damage it brings – everyone who speced deep Combat eventually went from Riposte to Improved SnD is the solid proof. The AR served as a ’slow burst’ not so much to kill someone in many situations, but to force the opposing players in to playing defensively.
With this style came a new enemy – Druids. Soon after Arena water was available for purchase, Resto Druids started flooding the 2v2 and 3v3 market. With the amazing Poison removal ability known as Abolish Poison, Resto Druids became the bane of Rogues. Some Rogues tried to adapt to this via specing stronger Poison (20/41/0), others decided to:
Style two - Rush down. After everyone got full Gladiator gear and eventually retired their 12 Stam gems in favor of AP or hybrid gems and enchants (Warrior was doing this since day 1 of Season 1), the burst from certain classes can finally overcome the extreme amount of HP and Resilience TBC has brought us. ‘Fast burst specs like CB/Prep and AR/Prep are optimal for this. You still don’t see combos like Hunter + Rogues but at least there are more choices than just playing with a healer now. (Mutilate is quite interesting, it fits more into style one than two but is still capable of fast burst)
As you can see, the current state of Rogue playing styles involves 2 key aspects: Sustained DPS or Burst. If the Rogue is ever slowed or immobilized, obviously you will suffer in both fields. However, I believe Rogue’s mobility is fine against every class, it’s just Warrior’s mobility is exceptional and Warrior’s ability at immobilizing is too good as well. Add in the fact that Abolish Poison can keep a Rogue kited for good; mobility became a top issue for Rogues. So Shadow Step sounds pretty nifty now by taking care of what haunted the Rogue class ever since style one and two was developed right?
Revisit what makes the 2 styles, high sustained DPS and burst. Going Assassination Shadow Step will make you lose the chance on both sustained DPS and burst on demand. So until someone comes up with a viable Shadow Step build that can provide either enough burst or enough sustained DPS (more promising option) to top deep Combat, there’s really no reason to go down this path. Cheat Death change looked like an attempt to fix the focus fire problem Rogues have but from the other team’s PoV, would you really avoid targeting the Rogue just because they have the new Cheat Death? Shadow Step spec is a step back to Season 1 and if you want to play Arena competitively, you should step away from it as well. Last time I checked, Rogues were doing well in 3v3s without Preparation.
There are always views from both side, hippyfighter from our forums has wrote a post about first hand experience on Shadow Step, check it out!
PS: I would be going Mutilate if I didn’t already sink my points in to pair of S3 Maces.
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December 17th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Tired of hearing rogues complain about how hard they have it. Between the stun locks, the CoS that blizz gave to all of them (idk why),and the same constent attitude of everything is mine get out of my way, really pisses a lot of people off.
I have gone back to fire on my mage due to the fact that just like the ar/prep spec, ice spec is like having the bfg9000/god mode in Doom. It’s not a challenge regardless of gear anymore but most people don’t see this.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:12 am
I highly disagree–shadowstep leaves open two options: if you want to burst, assassination Shadowstep gives you the option of using backstab for burst damage (200% weapon damage + 255 + 20% from Shadowstep + 20% if target is below 35% health + 30% critical damage + 30% chance to crit); if you want to have sustained DPS, combat Shadowstep gives you access to Dual WIeld and Improved SnD, both of which are the core of combat’s sustained DPS. Rogues were doing fine in 3v3s without Preparation only because there weren’t many other rogues that had Preparation. A preparation rogue will eat any traditional combat rogue alive–no opener + half the CDs, forget it.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:17 am
^ you are dumb ^
You are either extremely undergeared or simply don’t understand class mechanics. You’re right that some rogues feel they should have everything they ask for but what most rogues are asking for is what we as a class should be entitled to. AR/Prep wasn’t anymore overpowered than SL/SL or MS especially after the proposed 110% weapon damage nerf. It was OUR PVP spec the same way that the afore mentioned classes have THEIR PVP spec.
Also, you are dumb. Why would you intentionally limit your viability by specing in a way that you know is inferior for the kind of playing you’re doing. That is pure idiocy.
In conclusion: you are dumb.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Ooops, sorry derrick. My post was (as should be obvious by the content) was directed at Dan… who is dumb.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:28 am
Any objective person will tell you that AR/Prep is OP. If you cant come to grips with that I’m sorry but its a fact. The most objective people (developers) obviously agree hence the nerf.
December 18th, 2007 at 2:39 am
I too have sunk a few points into s3 maces, but i’ve already dusted off my s1 shanker and *unenchanted* Malchazeen for abit of Mutilate practise outside of orgrimmar and in the battlegrounds.
My Major concern will be learning to manage my cooldowns properly but I’m more than happy with both the sustained and the burst potential of mutilate against good geared opponents.
Unfortunately my arena teammates literally cried down vent when they saw me with daggers in durotar, they’ve no idea why maces are so good - they just know they’re good!
December 18th, 2007 at 3:05 am
Guys… The point is that Shadow Step isn’t a valid replacement of AR/Prep, that is all. I totally believe AR/Prep is OP in it’s current form.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:02 am
I personally never played a rogue in arena so I don’t really have much background on this, but you mentioned in the first part that rogues had poor survivability and that was why they weren’t wanted. If rogues could get survivability from speccing shadowstep, couldn’t they gear up for all damage too? Shadowstep still doesn’t sound amazing or anything, but with some drain teams coming out, I was just playing some theorycraft.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:12 am
“The CoS that Blizz gave to all of them (idk why)”
There would be no Rogue class in TBC if we didn’t get CloS…. Try not sucking.
I still believe the best overall lineup for a Rogue post patch WILL be RMP with the Rogue being Combat. AR/Prep is only strong because of the abuse of cooldowns to force the other team into a fast defence, which enables you to put out your damage (PI mage/AR while CD’s are burning).
The problem is, most teams can’t withstand the current AR/Prep in correlation with RMP because of the pressure we can put. The extra AR with this spec wasn’t what allowed us to be feared, it was the fact that we had 2 sprints/vanishes and evasions which allowed us to not be babysat and useless after our first set were down.
0/31/30 will still be an amazing spec for Rogues, and I believe War/Rogue/Druid will dominate next patch if the Rogue can go Shadowstep (0/20/41) which allows for amazing mobility from all 3 classes.
December 18th, 2007 at 4:55 am
I was planning to buy s3 maces next week, however now im holding out for the daggers. Mutilate here I come. Was hoping that I could spec shadowstep but meh.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:59 am
Its becoming roguesource.com again, what happened to the podcast too? :/
Ziss: Tell Kintt to stop ditching our appointments =(
December 18th, 2007 at 8:30 am
[…] PvP Source : Your #1 Source for Competitive World of Warcraft PvP Decent little Shadowstep article and point of view of rogues from season to season. I tried Shadowstep with my usual partner in 2v2 at 1925 rating and lost every game to teams with druids, without AR or Maces there’s just no way to rushdown players during fear -> blind duration. If this nerf goes through, it’s going to put rogues at the very bottom of the pecking order, which sucks because we were already low in 5v5. […]
December 18th, 2007 at 8:35 am
Whats funny is they gave mages iceblock when they realized they are all going frost for pvp cause its so necessary. Now that rogues are realizing preparation is necessary to defeat being kited to death are they gonna give us preparation as a trainable skill so we can actually spec in a tree besides subtlety?
December 18th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Ziss, I am curious… OP how?
I am scanning the current top 10 arena rankings and I see only a slight increase in rogues from the end of season 2. It seems like the hemo buff and intro of ar/prep finally balanced out our numbers in these slots. It is not like we are finally overcoming druid and war/lock teams to dominate 2s or have become a must have in 5s.
And I am also sure you are that CURRENT ar/prep still fails in 1v1 against top duelers at top gear levels.
How op?
Ziss: Op in terms of comparing to other specs. Also AR/Prep should be strictly a rushdown spec, currently it’s being used as a sustained DPS spec as well.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Since start of S1 the major prob of the class was mobility.
Not much people want rogues to have more dps because it was not the prob of most decent arenaplayers.
The only reason why mobility was in the fokus of most discussions was the fakt that mutilate and
full combat deserve a good potion of sustained dps and only mobilityissus make us nearly useless
in 5s.
With 41sub (prior0/20/41) we kill all mobility probs but we open a new much bigger problem.
What uses all mobility in the world when no rogue can bring more pressure on a target than
any decent caster.
The strengh and power of HARP was the gain in mobility by having good sustained dps and defense.
Its over!The only way to go was the way of S1
Mut or Combatmaces, end of story…it makes me sad but its reality.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:48 am
It’s hilarious the there are obviously more powerful spec and classes in arena, just look at the rankings, and yet AR/PREP gets nerfed before any of them. I just find it sad that the main reason it’s getting nerfed is because teams in lower brackets never learned to save their immobilize and CCs for rogues using Adrenaline Rush.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Correct…if played right everyone has the chance to handle AR/Preb rogues but thats a process of lerning and it needs time…the time blizz wont gave us to proof ar/prep as ok not OP.
My way to is 16/45/0 after 2.3.2 and i have bought the maces not only becaus arp….
If i have anough points i buy the mutilator to test it with the merciless shanker….if its possible to stay with daggers i will get the shanke and last i complete the set…..
i love to switch specs(16/45 to 41/20) every 2 weeks…only good news….we have know absolut like MSWar,WEMage,SLLock,Restodrood,Restoshaman,DiscPriest
We will be lowtier and my point of view is a ranking under roguecombs…..thats were iam lookink at….i want to be the best possible rogue i can be and i love to have mobilityissus
when i can deliver the pressure i had to…
mobility is useless when iam dangerous like a
goldfish on valium
December 18th, 2007 at 11:56 am
The only fix is for Blizzard to buff all the classes for 1v1. Individually buffing classes only leaves the ones already at a disadvantage (shaman) even further behind.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Every class has a way to counter 2x AR’s. Warriors simply put on a sheild and absorb it while they take heals or just hamstring kite or fear. Druids can cyclone, shapeshift and run or bear it up and absorb the damage. Warlocks can CoE kite, fear, DC. Mages have blink, IB and numerous snares to get out of mele range. etc…
This nerf is ridiculous. Our damage output is subpar against most classes given HP & armor without AP/Prep and once both AR’s a blown we are pretty much SoL.
I don’t know where I am going to go come patch time but at least I have a pretty tricked out lock to fall back on.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Why not making Shadowstep trainable?
No balancing probs in PVE and the only way to give Rogues what they need, a good dps by the mobility they need.
If its impossible for blizz to create a new 41 subtalent as a 1,5 billion dollar company then reduce the cd of sprint to 30 seks and the duration to 4-6sek and remove all changes in 2.3.
It would be the better deal for all of us.
with 16/45 combat i have no changes in any talent, all talents are exactly the same as after 1.12 in the great days of the sixthys.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
I’m done reading pvpsource.com posts, its nothing but rogue players cryin about rogue issues. Look at the classes represented in the recent 3v tournaments. Rogues are very well represented.
You guys need to look at class balancing from a game wide perspective and not from a class based persective.
For now, I’ll be looking for another site for my wow/ptr/class info and discussion.
Ziss: Did you read? I called Shadow Step a bad replacement of AR/Prep. I didn’t even suggest a buff what so ever and somehow you think I need to change my perspective? (Let’s do an example while I’m at it since the ability to understand writing obviously diminished in this generation. Mage got Ice block trainable, I’m saying don’t go from Frost to Fire just because Fire got Iceblock too. Is that crying?)
December 18th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Not in response to Ziss, but to those rogues saying AR/prep is not OP…
AR/prep is straight up OP. Best rogue on my server says so, even. The fact that you have wound poison and a 1 second GCD is good enough. As a warrior, I wish I was a rogue most of the time. I’m a better target vs a 4 dps team (on my 4 dps team), and a rogue is a much better substitute. I can’t kill a rogue in 3v3 due to multiple evasions, sprint, and all the while he’s obliterating the lock. Rogue can wreck cloth like nobody’s business with insane pushback and a 1 second GCD that allows you to DPS full tilt and still kick. A warrior is going to be rage starved far too much of the time to do anything but outlast a clothie in many (most cases in 3s) cases.
Before you go and say “like a warrior is calling a rogue OP, you own us”, it’s really not the case so much anymore. I’d rather be on a hunter even in a frost trap than trying to kill a rogue, simply because a hunter isn’t going to be unkillable for 30 seconds while putting out insane damage and then vanishing at a critical moment. Rather be on a lock. Rather be on a spriest. Rather be on an ele shaman. Way too much. Heck there was this fully geared out 2 warr + shaman team, and they were a joke even with me feeding one rage while he beat on my lock. The lock couldn’t kite them, but he still lived. Not the case with RMP.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:03 am
I keep hearing people say AR/Prep is op. It is like an internet meme at this point.
Yet where is the evidence for this? Where are the facts?
Go look at the top arenas teams for yourself… rogue are not dominating those teams. In 2s it is just as it was last season, in 5s it is actually worse for rogues right now since 4dps teams are weaker… 3s are the only bracket that has substantial rogue representation. But that is exactly as it was last season too.
In 1v1, at max gear/skill levels ar/prep rogues are every bit the joke they have always been. A geared druid can stand in caster form and not move 1 single inch and tank back to back ARs from a geared rogue. How the hell does that make AR/prep OP? Who in their right mind would witness that and instead of saying, well damn, that poor rogue just doesnt put out enough damage, would say actually that AR/prep is OP?
Mind boggling. Again, where is the proof? Where are the numbers? Where is everyone getting this absurdity from?
December 19th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Ziss,
You are right! This generation’s ability to understand writing has deminished. This is clear from your reply to my last post.
You said, “I didn’t even suggest a buff what so ever and somehow you think I need to change my perspective?”
If you had actually read my post you would have seen that not only did I not make any referance to any of your ideas or opinions, I didnt even make a reference to your article!
You took my comments way too personally. I wasn’t complaining about your article, I was complaining about pvpsource.com’s view on class balancing.
Ziss: You said “I’m done reading pvpsource.com posts (perhaps you meant forum posts?), its nothing but rogue players cryin about rogue issues.” so, please point me to this ‘crying’ post, cause I don’t see it. If you’re complain is the forum user base then I really have no control over that.
December 19th, 2007 at 11:45 am
You can tell right away when someone has never played a warrior when they say “warrior mobility is out of control”.
15 second intercept is nice but they still have far fewer escapes from snares and cc than rogues. Imp sprint x2, vanish x2, cloak of shadows and pvp trinket.
That’s 6 escapes. Warriors only have their pvp trinket.
Ziss: I’m sure schmity has no idea what he’s talking about too right? We’re talking about the ability to get back at your target once you lose melee range, not root breakers. Check podcast ep 1.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
I plan to give shadow-step another try. The reason I specced out of it was because it was quite simply, complete garbage in comparison to the AMAZING damage and control Ar Prep is currently able to put out. However, with the Hemo damage nerf, and the lack of now 2 AR’s, 1800ap 33% crit + lethality and relentless strikes doesn’t look to bad for a shadowstep build. I think the key will simply be building a team that takes advantage of the ability to the fullest extent, instead of one that gimps the comp by playing it. I think SHS has potential, I hope to show this potential.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Also, after many conversations with very competitive rogues like Nitrana and Isolee, all three of us agree that Ar Hemo nerf is a good thing for the rogue class. Not only do we not want to be pigeonholed into a single spec, but all of us were successful before this buff, and we plan to be successful afterwards. Also, I’ll be happy to see rogues’ having to actually …. think before blowing cooldowns in the future. This “hail ming, rushdown EVERYTHING” AR Prep mentality is driving me up walls. Cry about nerfs all you want, but pigeonholing rogues into a single spec is worse for the class than making it IMBA with Ar Prep Hemo.
Ziss: I was pretty happy with AR/Prep pre 2.3 playing with a SPriest as well. I still don’t see how ShS can work out UNLESS the sustained damage can be near Combat level. That doesn’t mean I haven’t thought of something like:
Mage queues shatter combo on 2nd target,
Rogue weapon switch to dagger, Vanish > ShS to 2nd target > Premed > Ambush > Evis > Prep > Vanish > ShS > Premed > Ambush > Evis
Perhaps a CloS somewhere in there to deny interruption. Now that’s theorycraft
December 19th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
I don’t think you realize how elitist you come off sometimes Minti. If you are so leet that you were doing just fine without AR/prep… then why don’t YOU go back to playing your old spec and forgo it? No one is pigeonholing you into anything, if you were so good before hand, then don’t spec it. No one is forcing you into anything. Some people actually enjoy playing a rushdown, in your face style. Sorry it drives you up a wall, but what drives me up a wall are these long boring, hide in a corner in stealth, rope a dope type fights. Your last video made me want to pull my hair out. Some of us enjoy fast paced action.
With AR/Prep the way it is right now the class is bottom tier in 1v1 (havent seen you on test dueling any of the top players lately), and still under represented in top arena. Your post and attitude reeks of “I don’t care if the class as a whole is having trouble, I was really good without this spec and so I don’t want anyone to use it”. What the hell kind of attitude is that? That is like a warrior saying that because he is really good with Bloodthirst that Mortal Strike builds should be nerfed.
Ziss: Minti was AR/Prep way before 2.3 and got to around 2300(?).
December 19th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
“Ziss: Minti was AR/Prep way before 2.3 and got to around 2300(?)”
So that post makes even less sense then. He played the spec with success before it became popular but he feels pigeonholed now? I swear, sometimes it seems like he just wants to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. I’m still waiting to see any evidence what-so-ever that this spec has propelled rogues to a state of over poweredness in arenas.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
We actually broke 2400 in 2’s and yes I did play Ar Prep before 2.3 was even announced. I preferred the spec for the type of play rogue + lock does in 2’s. However at this point every rogue and his mother is AR Hemo, and lets be realistic, why would anyone be anything else? There is no reason to quite honestly, not only does Hemo out damage Sinister Strike for LESS energy, it provides a debuff that further dramatically increases your damage.
You defend your God Spec because it makes the game that much easier. You like it because you think easier = balance. Whistle blower, perhaps the issue isn’t giving us one Spec to dominate them all - especially an ability that makes no sense what so ever (hemo less energy than SS but dramatically more damage with a debuff). Finally, I’m bored, I’m bored with the same ol same ol, before AR Prep was unique, some people played it most didn’t, it was a strong spec, but it wasn’t the undeniable best spec. If you don’t spec AR prep right now, like it or not, you are truly gimping yourself and your team. NOTHING compares.
Before there was balance, AR prep was great with some team comps, weak with other team comps, it was more balanced. I promote the ShS buff because I think one, Rogues’ need real sublety options, and 2, it’s a step in the right direction to fixing mobility. 2v2’s 3v3’s, 5v5’s, everything is cc the healer, gib the target. Frankly it’s boring, I’d like to personally have a spec viable for me to play that didn’t rely on me spamming cooldowns the first minute of play in an attempt to gib whatever target my team chooses.
It’s not like AR Prep is going to be terrible now, it’s still going to be powerful, but you won’t be able to rape SL/SL locks with 490 res and 12.9k hp from 100% to 0% in 15 seconds anymore. Which in all honesty, we should never have been able to do in the first place.
As for evidence that shows that this spec has propelled rogues to be imbalanced? Fact is, nothing anyone could really offer at this point could objectively argue for or against it. One thing is for sure, rogues weren’t fine, we aren’t “perfect now” we could use some changes, but AR Prep Hemo in its current form isn’t it in my opinion.
Surely someone as intelligent than you can recognize the difference between an opinion. It’s borderline funny (almost, but not quite) that you would feel so threatened that I would — OH NO! — disagree!?!?
December 19th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
ok that does it,
can you tell me why the hell are you pigeonholed into a single spec? i am fucking tired of dumb rouges saying that “muti sucks now cuz ar/prep is imba” “i can’t play any other cuz ar/prep is imba” srsly WTF are you talking about ??? go spec sth else if you don’t like it ffs! nobody is forcing you to spec it!!! do you hear warriors crying over being pigeonholed into ms spec?!? they can go fucking pvp with full fury ! if you wanna do the same go fucking play with your shitty daggers and get kited to death but don’t touch my goddamn ar/prep!
December 19th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Minty, lets set up a night to meet on PTR. I will bring a high rated SL/SL warlock in full s3 with both trinkets - arena conditions. I want to see you rape him in 15 seconds. I’m calling obscene amounts of BS on this.
And this isn’t just opinion - stating such is always the last resort of someone who has no evidence or logic behind their claims. Opinion would be, “I find AR/Prep boring” - that is not the only thing you are saying. You are saying, “it is OP”, it is “god spec”. Well, we have facts and evidence to examine those claims. We have the current arena season, we have the end of s2 arena stats, and we have top rated duels to observe. In looking closely at all of this, I don’t see how anyone in their right mind could argue rogues of ANY spec are OP.
Of course every class should have multiple specs to play. But what on earth are you people thinking calling for an AR/Prep nerf or rejoicing in it? If you want multiple specs, ask for buffs to the weaker specs. Again, this is the functional equivilent of Warriors asking for a MS nerf because they want to play more Shield Slam.
I prefer playstyle A, you prefer playstyle B… the difference between me and you is that you want A nerfed just because you don’t like it. I’m sure that once AR/Prep gets nerfed and everyone jumps to the next best spec, you’ll start to get depressed again and hope for its demise. Kind of a sad way to approach things imo.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
@ Dan at the top — frost is god mode and not a challenge, therefore you DON’T spec that way? Serious PVP competition is not for you, it’s about winning, period.
You do bring up an interesting point though, since frost is obviously the most effective PVP spec for Mages just like MS is the most effective PVP spec for Warriors. I believe Blizzard is trying to make Sub the CLEAR choice for Rogues simply because it makes the class easier to balance. We’re a lot different from some of the other classes in that both of our other 41 point talents are quite effective in certain situations.
If Blizzard wants me to use Shadowstep, I’m willing to do it. But they absolutely have to offer some sort of sustained damage in response to their rebudgeting of stamina and the introduction of resilience. Unfortunately I think strong sustained DPS in Sub is a contradiction since they don’t want Sub rogues doing competitive damage in the Raid environment.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I had another suggestion that I forgot to add, and it’s potentially a very easy change to make. Just move Mace Spec to the Sub tree, giving ShS Rogues access to the stun proc. Nobody trying to min/max damage is going to raid with Maces anyway, there is absolutely no reason why one of our most powerful PVP talents should be stuck at the 20+ tier of our PVE tree.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
completely agree with fold,
like replacing it with enveloping shadows and tweaking it a little bit to be useful in more pve encounters
December 19th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Trying to argue that a serious pvper isn’t pigeonholed into the best pvp spec is just stupid. Any serious pvper will choose the best spec. (That’s not to say a serious pvper won’t choose an unorthodox spec during the season to challenge themselves, but if you’re actually trying to win, tournament for example, you’re pigeonholed into the best. atm arprep is that spec. After the nerf however, ar prep is more on par with the other specs. Rogues will choose the spec that best fits their play style since there wont be an overpowering one to be pigeonholed into This is better for the rogue class.
It seems like there’s major confusion with what people are talking about. Most people saying the nerf was not needed are arguing that the the spec wasn’t too powerful in arena. When really, the conversation is about the spec being too powerful compared to other specs. You could be ar prep atm, and get completely owned all the time. You could be saying, “hey that spec wasn’t too powerful, if they wanted to balance spec compared to others they should have just buffed the others.” That’s a completely different debate.
my 2c
December 19th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
so tell me why is sl/sl the best spec for locks?, frost is the best spec for mages?, 35/25/3 arms is the best spec for warriors?, holy is the best spec for paladins? resto is the best spec for druids?
aren’t they also pigeonholed?
then why don’t they whine?
why should we get 3-4 shitty specs instead of 1 which is actually powerful?
is the rogue community that stupid to call nerf on itself?
December 19th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
“Rogues will choose the spec that best fits their play style since there wont be an overpowering one to be pigeonholed into. This is better for the rogue class.”
I disagree, and my reasoning is the PVP state of Rogues in the entirety of BC. Give me one spec that is clearly the best, and balance it against the other classes and the most important environment (arena). Giving us so many options for any application makes balance infinitely harder to achieve. I say pigeonhole me, but make me effective. Leave the marginally effective stuff to the people who are happy with BGs and casual play.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
There’s really no comparison between other classes being pigeonholed and rogues being pigeonholed. Rogue specs are so similar, roles slightly vary. Unlike resto druids vs feral it’s a COMPLETELY different role. There’s no way you can balance the presence of a resto druid vs the presence of a feral. But you can easily balance the presence of an ar prep rogue vs the presence of a combat rogue. I’m happy blizz is actually balancing what’s possible instead of deciding that since they can’t do it for every class, they won’t do it for any.
And again, people are still talking about the effectiveness of rogues. It really has nothing to do with it. It’s rediculously debatable. You could say you’d rather be pigeonholed into one spec and actually have that spec be viable. I could say that rogues are already completely viable and will easily obtain 2300 post ar prep nerf.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
scratch druids and paladins then, (lol i forgot priests who are currently on a bandwagon for discipline)
what about locks and mages?
December 19th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Quick clarification, I meant 2300 in all brackets.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Locks aren’t really pigeonholed though. I’m felguard for 5v5 which is far better for my setup (2346) than SL/SL. 4 dps teams use UA. They’ve already nerfed SL/SL in multiple ways. It’s still best for 2v2. Who knows. As for frost, They tried to to do what they did to rogues except the opposite. Buffed mages so that all get iceblock. But that was really just because you can’t arena at all as arcane or fire, whereas you could arena as a rogue as the other specs, combat/mut. Even with iceblock on others, frost completely trumps the rest. idk……hard to compare really. It’s entirely possible that they will make changes to other classes, but I guess they’re starting with rogues since it has the most similar specs/roles.
December 19th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
The problem, like Critickle stated, is that the current AR/Prep is the STRONGEST for all styles of play for Rogue. Unfortunately not everyone understood it. Check out Mage, they’re getting Ice Block trainable, they have buffed Beast and Survival tree for Hunters and Warlocks have 3 usable specs as we speak.
Maybe from the above trend, you can tell that Blizzard is trying to have multiple usable specs for PURE DPS classes (Rogue, Mage, Warlock, Hunter).
Please don’t compare DPS classes with hybrids (Yes Warrior is a Hybrid - Tank/DPS).
December 19th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
“It’s rediculously debatable. You could say you’d rather be pigeonholed into one spec and actually have that spec be viable. I could say that rogues are already completely viable and will easily obtain 2300 post ar prep nerf.”
This is not ridiculously debatable. Unless we argue the semantics of what “viable” means. It is like saying that it is ridiculously debatable that the Tampa Bay Devils Rays were one of the top baseball teams last season. We have stats, placements, videos of games to watch… in other words, evidence. We have the same for pvp in WoW. We have PTR duels, we have end of S2 stats, we have opening S3 stats. There is evidence to this debate, it just isn’t being considered by anyone.
And while this may be true: “When really, the conversation is about the spec being too powerful compared to other specs.”
I just can’t imagine how anyone would think the solution to balancing specs (and providing variety in specs) for an already low middle tier pvp class is to nerf its best pvp spec. It is an absolute bastardization of reason. How shortsighted do people have to be to actually take that point of view?
December 19th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
I do agree that all rogues need buffs in mobility. They are still ignoring mutilate mobility problems and shs burst dps is still going to be sub par to combat maces and mutilate.
December 19th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Top 150 in the battlegroup, have a rating over 1800, played at least 50 games with the team.
5v5 - the bracket we are balanced around:
Warrior - 53
Priest - 57
Hunter - 16
Shaman - 44
Mage - 39
Paladin - 62
Warlock - 49
Druid - 20
Rogue - 16 (tied last)
3v3 plays out like you’d think:
Shaman - 8
warrior - 32
Paladin - 20
Hunter - 12
Priest - 39
Mage - 30
Warlock - 40
Druid - 30
Rogue - 44 (1st)
2v2 also plays out like you’d think.
Druid - 23
Warrior - 26
Paladin - 4
Hunter - 6
Priest - 16
Shaman - 7
Mage - 2
Warlock - 24
Rogue - 15 (5th)
Totals:
Warrior - 121
Warlock - 113
Priest - 112
Paladin - 86
Rogue - 75
Druid - 73
Mage - 71
Shaman - 59
Hunter - 34
WITH ar/prep we are exactly middle of the road. If you don’t want one dominate spec, then lobby for buffs and changes to the other specs, not for a nerf to the spec that has allowed us to reach the amazing mark of exactly average. Gawd, lol.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Showing the statistic for one random battlegroup doesn’t mean anything at all. All anybody needs to know is that rogues have potential in all brackets as a top team(ie end of the season 2400+). So anybody who can’t get there simply isn’t performing as well as the rogues who are there. Period. It could be due to gear, whether you have good ppl to play with on your server, etc. But either way, it’s not a class problem.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
It isn’t a random BG, it is BG9. I used it for obvious reasons. However, the numbers closely replicate across the other server groups.
Sure rogues have the potential to be on top teams, just not the same potential as other classes. And isn’t that the very definition of balance? You really think that these numbers, which factor in hundreds of thousands of players, simply show a gear or skill deficit on behalf of the lower represented classes… and not an actual class balance problem?
December 19th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
” So anybody who can’t get there simply isn’t performing as well as the rogues who are there” Your forgetting that an arena is a team-based environment.
and reinhold, as much as i agree that your data provided above has some meaning / use, maybe if not entirely applicable in this circumstance, dont you think that as already a mediocre/ moderately successful class rogues should be more or less “left alone” and the focus should be on reduction of whatever makes the top classes so good, ramping up the lower classes in effectiveness, or a combination of both?
December 19th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
The fact that there are less rogues in top 150 doesn’t prove there’s a class balance problem. Can warriors and warlocks achieve top 150? Yes. Can rogues achieve top 150? Yes. Oh, so it turns out less rogues managed to do it. That just means less rogues can play at the level that the ones who made it can. That’s all it means. That’s not a class balance problem because when played in a certain way, it can be successful.
December 20th, 2007 at 6:47 am
Undispellable CoS to avoid damage/CC from spells, Sprint+Vanish to avoid roots/snares, along with AR for burst/dps pressure, Evasion to survive rogue’s/warrior’s beating AND on top of all that Prep and Hemo debuff PLUS mace stuns and stuns from abilities PLUS physical undispellable Blind… OP? yes.
The way I see it, having good dps+burst+mobility+survivability(AR/Prep has it all now) is asking too much.
Mobility of the warriors? lolol
December 20th, 2007 at 7:02 am
the only good thing about shs was that it was fun to play, but most casters know enough to stay mobile
if they took away the 125% damage to hemo, i would be ok with that
but the taking of AR off of prep is lame
almost as lame as blizzard’s excuse
December 20th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Absolutely absurd statement.
Implying that those numbers show that a majority of rogues simply need to l2play is akin to saying that simply because Mugsy Bogues (5ft 3in) managed to play in the NBA that the sport isn’t imbalanced toward tall people. (zomg basketball reference, be like ming)
December 20th, 2007 at 8:46 am
I’m glad they’re nerfing it. It’s kind of irritating to see rogues with little to no skill simply spam everything they have and just hope they win. At least with the nerf, cooldown management will be brought back into play.
However, I still have no idea what I’m going to be speccing. =(
December 20th, 2007 at 9:54 am
not absurd
absurd is thinking every lock and warrior does know how to play and Doesnt just push buttons
December 20th, 2007 at 10:01 am
“The fact that there are less rogues in top 150 doesn’t prove there’s a class balance problem. Can warriors and warlocks achieve top 150? Yes. Can rogues achieve top 150? Yes.”
Look at the numbers, how many rogues are there versus warriors and warlocks? I could understand the argument if we were talking about a few individual players, but these are statistics that bear out across thousands of players and every battlegroup. “Balance” all relative, and your argument is just as susceptible to fallacies as anyone else’s. By your logic, NOBODY is underpowered, since every class is represented in the top tier of competition at least once. How do you judge balance then?
December 20th, 2007 at 10:03 am
“absurd is thinking every lock and warrior does know how to play and Doesnt just push buttons”
This is exactly the issue. Skill, however that can be judged, doesn’t seem to be evenly distributed across the top classes. Incredibly skilled rogues can achieve Gladiator, but I would argue that classes that are more tailored for the environment or have more effective tools are reaching the same level but with less skill. That’s imbalance.
December 20th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Reinhold said: “A geared druid can stand in caster form and not move 1 single inch and tank back to back ARs from a geared rogue. How the hell does that make AR/prep OP?”
I’m building a resto druid, and so far, that’s far from the case (I rarely survive a rogue attack). However, as my gear improves, I can see that what you describe may be possible (although I would think timely cyclones would be necessary).
Let’s assume that it is possible. Then I expect that the druid would be on the full defensive, unable to deliver any damage to the rogue (except for thorns). Once the assault is complete, the druid’s mana is likely largely depleted (maybe 25% to 33% left). Although the rogue’s burst is over, many of the druid’s resources are also depleted.
This is how I see the initial encounter would unfold. And keep in mind that amoung healers, the druid’s abilities are amoung the best to counter a rogue. I doubt priests (or shammies) could consistently survive a rogue attack. I assume Paladins could though.
From a balancing perspective, should the rogue be able to destroy the druid? I don’t think so, and apparantly, that’s not the case either. Should a full assault force the druid to be completely defensive? I don’t think so either. A druid should have some time to counter offensively or support a team mate. If amoung healers druids are the best (or second best) at surviving a rogue burst, the “fact” that they can barely do it implies to me that rogues are OP.
Again, the above is speculation based on extrapolating from personal experience. If anyone can attest to its validity, please respond. Thanks in advance.
December 20th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Vulkra I think the statement you quoted is a bit hyperbolic, as a druid would never actually stand still in caster form because such an action would completely ignore their two best defenses against attacks: Mobility and high defensive capability versus melee attackers.
Druids are the most mobile class in the game, being able to shapeshift out of any root or snare except Judgement of Justice. In addition, powerful heals are available to the Druid that they can instant cast on the fly thereby making them amazing at offering healing support while avoiding direct melee damage to themselves. Considering this, you can see why Druids are an amazing counter to Rogues and melee in general. No skilled Druid would ever tank a Rogue in caster form because they would get destroyed. However, swapping to bear to survive a melee barrage makes them extremely tough on top of the fact that they can escape a rogue snare easily and heal themselves and their teammates on the run.
December 20th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
yes all healers can survive a rogue attack just fine. some(ok priests) require extremely minimum peeling by their team.
December 20th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
when rogues could deadly throw a drood over and over , we had em
now, we get close but its like an ice cream letting us get close , then hit the gas pedal “aww come on!”
and its hard to see how rogues are doing, not every one is “roguefolife”
im sure some have gone to locks or warriors
the best always shine but some move on and do even better
im no where there but im leveling mah drood and its gonna be hard to go from …”yer on yer own”/cast Vanish to “if i dont heal you, were both screwed”/cast Regrowth,Rejuv
Rogues are op, sure…guess I’ll play somethin else ’till they figure it all out
December 20th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
““At 70, stunlocks aren’t nearly as powerful, because it doesn’t force your opponents into a defensive mode.”
lol how can someone defend if they are stunlocked?
December 20th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
“By your logic, NOBODY is underpowered, since every class is represented in the top tier of competition at least once. How do you judge balance then?”
Thank you for making this point about 11 times better than I did with that stupid Mugsy Bogues analogy.
“I think the statement you quoted is a bit hyperbolic, as a druid would never actually stand still in caster form”
Somewhat of a hyperbole. No druid ever would… but the best geared actually COULD… and the best geared rogues will have a very hard time killing them in back to back ARs until they run out of mana. Grab a top rated druid on PTR and ask him to show you this. That is how powerful druid HOTs are and how weak, comparatively, this supposed OP spec of ours is.
Now of course Druids will NOT just stand still and roll HOTs and laugh at you… they will kite and switch forms and CC you. But the point I was trying to make is that if we can’t kill a stationary druid in caster form with 2 ARs, how over powered could that ability really be?
December 20th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
It’s true that a decent resto druid can stand still and take a full AR as long as you don’t interupt or stun. Of course, in real play, you will try to interupt and stun and they will try to escape.
The point is still vaild that their HOTs can absorb at least 1 if not 2 ARs.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Locks are really the only dps that can realistically 1v1 a top-geared healer.(Mostly thanks to drain life.) And even then some can beat them. It’s not really a problem that only rogues have. This is due to the balance of healing efficieny compared to dps efficiency that is needed as more players are added to the mix.
The amount of dps that an ar/prep rogue can put out is nuts when you consider how well rogues can shut down their targets. (Limiting them to instant casts only generally.)
December 20th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Ugh, forgot to add. Druids are a horrible example to use since they have the best of everything available to them as healers. Best cc, best mobility, best instant heals, near immunity to snares, and best poison dispel.
December 20th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Yeah so one guy makes it who’s 5ft 3in. Are you trying to say that only one rogue makes it?
The fact still remains, rogues are completely capable of getting #1. So you want to buff the class for more people to make it so the class is equal in amount to other class? Hmmm. Now where does that put the rogues who are already up there?
low amount =/= imbalance.
At the end of s3 I played lock rogue and got to 2357 for glad, 16th. In about 3 weeks we played and went 120-45, or something like that. First time playing together. Literally all we’d do every game is both me and the rogue get on one target and zerg it down. Wasn’t even any complex strategy involved. Almost always went for the healer. We didn’t even do some of the stuff I’ve seen in videos like having the rogue clos bandage many times to outlast, vanish sapping to pull off a straight 30 secs of combined cc on healers, etc. I wonder how high we might have gotten if we actually coordinated better. Yet we still got 16th via zerging with usually no target switching.
What’s stopping rogues from doing this? And don’t say it’s a class balance problem. We didn’t even play at that high of a level, and in the same way that a lock/war druid doesn’t have to play at a high level to get glad, or so the stereotype goes. Well sorry, rogues are no exception.
December 24th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
roguesource.com
March 9th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
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