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The Bandwagon Build of Season 3
November 6th, 2007 by Sunken ·
My name is Sunken, a lot of you might know me from my pvp edits, the forums, my gameriot blog, amongst other things. My real name is Todd, I am 23 years old and live in Philadelphia, PA. I have been playing wow, as a Rogue, since the games initial release. I originally played an Undead Rogue on Eredar. I then re-rolled Alliance on that server and have server transferred a handful of times. All that being said I ended up where I am now….on Mannoroth. For those who are interested in my arena ratings, spec, or char info you can check out my armory here. So, that’s a little background about me if you wanted to know or were interested. Now, let’s look at our main topic.
The beginning of every season, or sometimes, slight Rogue “buff,” starts a new era of bandwagon builds. This season it is more than obvious what 90% of the Rogue population will be speccing. Most of them will be going a form of AR/Prep and some might even be going CB/Premed. Why you ask? Because it’s the easiest way out. You can call me close minded, or whatever you may….but that’s a huge portion of the truth. That and the fact that people like Ming and Neilyo are using this spec as we speak. We all know what non-thinkers like to do… whatever someone else who is decent at the game is doing. In reality this is just a new version of novice friendly - Combat Maces, with more versatility.
The following are the versions of these builds that I would spec if I was going to use them, which I probably won’t. They would be something along the lines of the 2 listed below.
Season 3 Bandwagon Specs:
Now it is more than likely that everyone will spec AR/Prep, which saddens me. It is the most bandwagon choice, and the easiest to play successfully. I know many people will disagree with me and say it’s more to micromanage, etc. Sure, you have more buttons to press but it takes little skill to slam Hemo a million times with 2 AR’s pumping out huge amounts of damage. As I stated earlier, it’s a new updated version of the old Combat Mace build. The fact of the matter is that most Rogues will still manage their cooldown usage poorly. Thus, this spec will appear, to this specific percentage, as bunk. Only top players will actually be able to utilize this spec to its fullest capacity. Even though I hate this spec there are still a lot of plus factors to it.
Sprint x 2
Adrenaline Rush x 2
Vanish x 2
Evasion x 2
1.5 min cooldown on Blind
Longer Blind and Sap range
Riposte (my personal favorite)
Additional 10% stun resist (if you spec into it)
Mace Stun
The list goes on…
On paper this is the easy choice, and the easy way out for a novice player. This build has many more appealing talents to spec into than say….Mutilate. The 15% run-speed increase simply isn’t enough for most people to continue playing that spec. That is the only “buff,” the Assassination tree has received, and will receive by the time 2.3 goes live. Double cooldowns (mainly Improved Sprints) makes it even easier for Rogue to stick on Druid. The kiting factor is almost null and void. Sure, they are receiving a defensive buff….but that really isn’t going to make a huge difference, especially if you run double DPS in 2s (which I do). Even in 3s it’s not going to be that big of a deal, especially if you run with a Lock who doesn’t rely on any Crits. It is also much easier to survive with this spec, 2 Vanishes help out greatly when you are getting DPS’d hard or have a Warrior stuck on you spamming Hamstrings. The laundry list of positive qualities included in AR/Prep goes on and on.
A good percentage of Rogues I have spoken to are going AR/Prep in season 3, if the changes stick and make it to live. I am still some what unconvinced this spec will fair decently for all of the combos I play (especially 3s). This still doesn’t change the fact that the majority of Rogues will still have sub-par ratings. This build won’t act as a savior to all Rogues, much like Ming has been preaching. I also still feel that this spec will be useless in the majority of 5v5 teams. I still really hate the fact of how bad the spec is after your AR’s are used up. If there is a clutch player on any team that knows how to CC or take the Rogue out of the game while AR is pumping, its game over….end of discussion. People have debated this fact since PTR has been up with the Hemo changes. I have talked to just about any Rogue worth mentioning and they really have nothing to defend themselves besides saying I’m flat out wrong, or some other pompous statement along those lines. If you are going to spec a certain way and spend several thousand points on weapons, and hundreds of gold on enchants and gems, you should have some sort of rebuttal for a simple accusation. I’m still waiting for someone to convince me that this spec will be viable once your cooldowns are used up (including Prep). Ming has stated that the other team will be mana dry, or 1 player dead, by this time, if played properly. I disagree. I have fought many AR/Prep Rogues in 3s, against my team it is a laughable spec. Even after the buff I still don’t feel that they will be anything especially difficult to manage. As I stated earlier, all you have to do to take these Rogues out of the game is CC them hard… Cyclone /Root /Fear /Poly etc. A Rogue only has several ways to get out of these things, Trinket, Improved Sprint, Vanish, Cloak of Shadows. Although Veteran Rogues might be able to handle the CC situations correctly with great cooldown management, the typical Rogue will respond with something like this:
The Rogue pops first AR after opener; he gets Feared by Howl of Terror, after that he gets Death Coiled, then Feared again. Most likely he/she will choke and at least blow Trinket or Vanish, after that the Druid can start CCing as well. If that Rogue chooses to break the Druid’s CCs then the Lock can swap right back with DR on Fear mostly gone. For whatever reason, if the said Rogue still has some of the damaging cooldowns left/pumping, the Druid can swap back again and start to Root/Cyclone/Bash/etc again. It is going to be a lot easier to take majority of the typical Rogues out of the game than people think. Sure, top quality players can still rise above these CC barrages if they manage their cooldowns with 110% efficiency. But what percentage of the Rogue population is that? Maybe 0.2…?
Anyway, I have done enough bashing about this spec. Hopefully in a future podcast I can address these issues in further detail. Until then all I am asking is for you to think for yourselves and don’t be convinced or deceived by bunk theory-crafters and people with sub-par Arena ratings, Ming especially. Many times he has already glamorized a spec that ended up in the trash and led many people in the wrong direction. Reality check guys, this spec isn’t going to boost your ratings from 1800 to 2300. This spec is not going to make you an Arena god… it just isn’t going to happen. Don’t believe the hype, I’m almost begging. Good luck in your S3 endeavors and hopefully I’ll see some player, top and casual, sticking with Mutilate, besides myself.
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November 6th, 2007 at 12:52 am
Not that I disagree with your statement but what you said about being cc’d and the CC chain you describe, wouldn’t that render pretty much everyone usless regardless of spec. I feel like someone who pops their cooldowns at an oppertune time will get some if not all use out of them. I am a huge fan of mutilate but I just feel bad that using what may be the strongest of our tools at this point in time makes someone a scrub. A scrub who specs mutilate is still a scrub.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:41 am
Not true. Mutilate can do burst and sustained dps at any stage of a game. I am still convinced that in a pvp setting, mutilate is the highest dps spec due to the ease of keeping imp EA and SnD up.
You can cc a mut rogue for 30 secs but you do not weaken by doing that. Conversely an ar/prep rogue is so reliant on his double AR that once used his energy regeneration goes to shit and his dps will plummet.
I agree with sunken that AR/prep is a bandwagon, and i have been saying this for a while now. But really i cannot blame people for speccing it, considering how little loving mutilate has received. It is a real shame how little blizzard care about daggers.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:47 am
Sure it would render everyone useless, however, That much attention from that many players on the rogue cannot continue for an extended period. Which means either the rogue’s team loses while they are CC’d or the rogue is finally free for a longer period. The problem with AR/Prep is that it hinges on the dual ARs. It lacks the burst of a Mutilate rogue, and the sustained damage of a combat rogue.
The reality of the CC in the game means that in 5v5 no one is going to sit there through 2 ARs, you will get CC’d off for at atleast part of both. Especially since it sends a neon sign that says “CC ME NOW!” but a Mutilate rogue can burst and still recharges energy in CC and a combat rogue still finishes through dodges and sustains damage late into the game, or as is often the case, is enough of a threat without using AR that combat rogues are CC’d before using AR and can afford to wait till later to use AR.
Personally I believe that AR/Prep only replaces the deep combat specs and only does so because of the buffs to dirty deeds and the 125% hemo. On a side note, As a combat rogue, I’m tired of being seen randomly by non- sight enhanced players, which with the new dirty deeds buff, and hemo @ 125% is quite compelling.
I’m still hoping for the return of the 30/0/31 build as with the arena 4 piece bonus, it’s kinda like being 31/0/31.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:14 am
I completely disagree with the this. People will always copy those at the top of the game, we all know that. But there is a reason why those spec’s are getting to the top. Mutilate is weak right now, you have 2 quick burst damages and thats even if you get to use them completely. After that you have to restealth and be behind me
I play a holy priest, prey of all mutilate rogues. Mut rogues tear me up, that being said they are weak after they lose the suprise attack. alot of them play lock/rogue or mage/rogue. As a priest I can survive a lock or a mage for a long period of time the rogue however is going to kill me pretty quick. I also play with a AR/prep rogue who will simply stun the mut rogue every time he jumps me. After his 2 attempts at killing me if I am standing your team is pretty much over and done with. There is little to no chance I am letting you go stealth again without using CoS. Once CoS goes down your weak to fear so you still don’t get a full burst.
AR/prep is going to be the way to go if your running Healer/Rogue. Mutilate is still great for Rogue/Lock Rogue/Mage where sprint damage is needed. Healer/Rogue it’s more important to have sustainable damage/CC/mobility so AR/prep is more useful.
Since Nzgs seems to think that AR/prep is cooldown reliant for damage I am going to have to correct him to. Because of the 35 energy cost of hemo you will be able to generate 5 combo points (cheap shot to start out) before the stun wears off. Next you SnD, since you have the Off-hand spec. you will be doing more damage with your off-hand and maces just hit harder to begin with. Since WHITE DAMAGE is most of a rogues damage AR/prep has MORE sustainable DPS then a mutilate rogue who will be wait 3 energy ticks compared to 2. That’s not even accounting for the chance at a mace stun which allows for unanswerable damage or the fact that a mutilate rogue has to be behind his target. Any smart PVPer just flicks the mouse and BAM! you have to run to the other side of me now.
Don’t get me wrong good mutilate rogues are hard to beat, I just don’t think you’re one of them if you are to blind to see it’s weakness.
Spec’s are based on team setup and what needs to be done to win. You spec to win, not to have some kind of “Honor”
November 6th, 2007 at 2:28 am
to the priest above me, you have no idea what you are talking about.
muti sustained dmg blows ar/prep away once ar’s are used..this is not even debatable
and the fact that u play healer/rogue with a ar/prep rogue this season just proves my point.
i will also assume you are not on bg9 if ur ratings are actually semi-decent.
getting behind a target every few seconds(only for muti, you dont have to be behind while ur white attacing) is no problem for any half decent rogue.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:29 am
I am combat swords at the moment because I dont have the money to respec for raiding and PVP. It seems in the future I will have to decide on one or the other. Currently, I am leaning towards Mutilate because its the most fun spec and it is strong. I am just thinking hard and trying to find an excuse that will make me say “buying two daggers off arena points was the right decision.”
That being said, I admit hemo has received incredible buffs and it is tempting to spec it. In your explanation, the thing you’ve stressed the most is the rogue getting CCed through both ARs. If this is the case, there are two things I find worth mentioning. A team able to CC in such a way as to rend the rogue useless has to be a team with highly rated players which means the 1700 rated rogues might have a shot at increasing their rating (obviously not to 2.3k). And the second thing would be, controlling the rogue, out of all the other players, in this manner will let the warrior lose (the current target in main focus for CC). Prioritizing CC on the rogue out of all the others, will still make you not focus on the warrior.
November 6th, 2007 at 4:32 am
Team whit rogue and warrior? O.o
November 6th, 2007 at 4:41 am
sunken, new “edit” pls. mac movie capture is good, yes?
November 6th, 2007 at 4:48 am
www.roguesource.com
Your #1 Source for Competitive World of ROGUEcraft PvP
sigh, please some variety. i dont want to see post after post of just rogues, there are other classes in this game you know.
btw Todd is an awesome name. i know from experience
Ziss: I know, they’re coming, I promise
November 6th, 2007 at 5:21 am
Sorry witty but you are dead wrong on nearly every point you make. Let me elaborate:
You say AR/prep is better for healer+dps and mut or combat is better for 2dps. I hope this was a typo and you got this the wrong way round. Fights with a healer are much longer and require more sustained dps where AR/prep fails, not to mention the synergy with QR for mutilate. 2dps fights are quick and you do not benefit from a dispeller so the cooldowns are required.
I dont know where you got this whole “2 attempts to kill me” thing with mutilate rogues. A good mutilate rogue will save his cold blood for late game to guarantee the kill. With EA on a priest, my noncrit mutilates can easily do 1500 damage which means i dont even need cold blood to burst a clothie down in a kidneyshot. Mutilate has similar sustained dps to combat, the difference is the stacked finishers and the better penetration against resilience by mutilate. AR/prep might do more base dps due to serrated blades and hemo debuff, but this is dwarfed by the 20-30% dps increase from imp EA. The only meaningful dps AR/prep offers is during AR. The loss of relentless strikes is a huge energy loss. In the period of an AR, a mut rogue can use 3 finishers and recover 75 energy + the energy from failed finishers. So you can imagine when AR is down the energy sucks for AR/prep. All it takes to counter an AR/prep rogue is to use evasion on one AR and cripple kite him on the 2nd. After that he can be ignored since his dps is so low.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:23 am
Sorry, by base dps i mean white damage. AR/prep white damage is high but dps from specials is low and it lacks any kind of burst.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:46 am
I understand what you are saying about mutilates strengths vs the 2 shot wonder of AR/Prep and I do believe that Mutilate will be the spec of choice. One thing to realize is that most “bad” rogues will do much better as AR/Prep then. Even though it is difficult to manage your CD’s as AR/Prep this is still much easier for most novice players as opposed to the positioning requirement, I can only imagine the stress of newer players when fighting a good warrior as mutilate.
This same point leads me to believe that AR/Prep will remain a stronger choice for 2v2 and perhaps 3v3 where the rogue may find himself frequently the focus and be unable to easily get behind their target for mutilate.
In addition to this AR/Prep comes with much more survivability then Mutilate, Simply having 2x Sprint goes a long way, not to mention 2x evasion, 2x vanish, and ghostly strike. So while a CC’d AR/Prep rogue may lose a big chunk of their damage potential its still more damage then a dead Mutilate rogue can put out.
November 6th, 2007 at 6:35 am
why is this retard posting here?
November 6th, 2007 at 6:49 am
People play to win. If they win more with that badwagon spec, good for them. Its not a matter of how much skill you need to play this spec or that spec, but a matter of getting the job done.
This post looks like a let down form this site. Other posts has always been informative and non-biased. This post looks like a bashing to Ming and all that he said.
Its cool that you had more content, but plz stay at the same quality. And something from other classes too
November 6th, 2007 at 6:59 am
AR/prep is already a good viable spec in 2s and 3s. and will be more powerfull after 2.3 release.
http://www.geekboys.org/arena/index/3/eu/rogue/all/all/
All the guys saying it’s a noob spec dont know what they’re talking about.. All the double cds have to be well timed ect. and in fact, it is nine thousand more fun to play that CD muti KS muti muti …
(sry for my bad english, fr inside)
November 6th, 2007 at 7:15 am
Keep the Ming bashing out of OUR website tbh.
November 6th, 2007 at 7:29 am
“and people with sub-par Arena ratings”
well, there’s a lot of people playing ar/prep with better arena ratings than yours..
Go on geekboys and see for yourself how you fail whith YOUR SUB-PAR ARENA RATINGS.
November 6th, 2007 at 7:30 am
You should probably keep Sunken from blogging here before this site loses all of its credibility.
Ziss: I don’t see why we’ll be losing credibility if he’s making valid points and keeping up with the quality. I invite people to write informative articles and I will not discriminate based on their history with WoW community as long as the content is there.
November 6th, 2007 at 7:41 am
This is not a ming bashing. This guy just wants us to keep our eyes open about good specs, not just take bandwagon specs.
while i agree that ar/prep is vulnerable to chain CCs, however in a larger group setting like 3v3, it wont be a problem with good communication with dispelling partners. Moreover, this spec have a much larger room for error, prep basically is the 2nd chance
November 6th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Nobody is saying that AR/prep sucks or it is for noobs. I think the point i am making is that the main aspects of that build will be exactly the same in 2.3 as now, and people are blowing things way out of proportion. Yeah i’ve seen some ar/prep rogues do great in 2.2, but i have also seen shadowstep rogues do good, the spec is good but no so good that all rogues will be forced to spec it in order to compete. That is pure bandwagon hype mainly created by a certain rogue starting with M.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:22 am
When have you seen a shadowstep rogue do well?
November 6th, 2007 at 8:49 am
Apparently an unknown rogue had beaten Serennia in a 1vs1 as shadowstep. It’s the player that really can show the true potential of any spec. However, I agree, for the most part, Shadowstep is fairly weak in comparison to many other specs available.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:56 am
1v1 =/= any arena play. I duel priests naked all the time and beat them. That doesn’t mean I can go into arena naked and achieve anything. Have any rogues made it up to 2300+ as solely shadowstep? I haven’t heard of any.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:05 am
For pure survivabilty at a small cost of dps, I’ve found that in 2.3, or even 2.2 27/34/0 maces works very well in almost any team as long as you have some healers somewhere. The only item you lose in combat tree is suprise attacks + combat potentcy. It’s a small dps set back but the extra run speed,snare resist, +heals, and KS buff for 5v5 makes up for it. Also those mace stuns really shine in the long fights. Any thoughts as to why no1 really runs with this spec?
November 6th, 2007 at 10:22 am
I’ll be Muti still. We’ll get buffs eventually
November 6th, 2007 at 10:33 am
“A good percentage of Rogues I have spoken to are going AR/Prep in season 3, if the changes stick and make it to live. I am still some what unconvinced this spec will fair decently for all of the combos I play (especially 3s). ”
so naturally it cant work for the combos other people play? And if it does they are scrubs?
just seems like more leetist-I-am-better-than-you cr@p. Why does it offend you so what other people spec into? The predominant pvp spec now is combat mace, is that the scrub express? Would you call Xecks a scrub?
And you cant tell me combat mace takes more skill to play than prep/hemo.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Why does everyone care so friggin much about rogues? I don’t understand. Pls, Pls, Pls, let’s get some articles from Holy Paladins, Warlocks, and Warriors. Three classes that many successful Arena teams are built around.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Sunken likes to think he’s so much better than anyone else. He prides himself on being original, thinking for himself, and sticking to his guns. However, someone pointed out on gameriot that sunken runs with a sl/sl lock in 2s and 3s. Yep, pure skillz right there. Not bandwagon, not scrub. I wonder what his ratings were like Season 1 before he picked up his scru…er, LEET lock partner. I do know he didn’t make glad.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:48 am
anyone that realizes Ming is a scrub is ok in my book!
November 6th, 2007 at 10:49 am
i went mutilate for AV weekend when the malchazeen dropped and i had a blast with it up until i went up against any mace weilder. the main thing i like about it was that i had keybind and mouse turn, so that was a plus, but for farmin (and i was broke)…not so much
ive always been a fan of swords and i tried 30/0/31 and it was great for pvp and farmin’….prep is such a fun talent and it can be a gamebreaker
regardless, im not going anywhere in arenas unless i put in 100%, get a synergistic team, and spec with them in mind
“The great Way is easy,
yet people prefer the side paths.
Be aware when things are out of balance.
Stay centered within the Tao.
(ya im old, but this makes sense to me now)
November 6th, 2007 at 10:50 am
First of all, adding needless attacks on bloggers from other sites just makes your post look like an attempt to discredit a personal enemy. It does nothing to help your case.
Second, I’m interested in your thoughts on HemoPremed/Sealfate. This build trades mutilate and the other high sub talents for prep, the major sacrifice being lower tier combat. It gains sub’s sustained (serrated, deadliness) and burst damage enhancers (dirty deeds, premed).
At 1650 AP, I show Hemo as identical damage per energy versus a DW specced, poisoned target, double 1.8 speed Mutilate. This is only counting the hemo buff once, discounting its benefit on all future swings. Once you add in Serrated Blades and Deadliness to hemo’s damage output, hemo creeps ahead. So Hemo specs actually deals 8.5% *more* yellow damage than Mutilate, on a per energy basis.
Hemo results in slower CP generation on the face of things. But overall? 2x hemo is 70 enegery for two combo points, and muti is of course 60. Thus Mut gets 17% more combo points from damaging attacks. However, a double crit mut is still only 3 CP, while two hemo crits yields 4 CP. At a 40.8% crit rate, hemo has equal CP generation to mutilate. This number is of course way higher than you’ll see in an arena, but the point remains that hemo actually only lags a few percentage points behind mutilate in terms of CP generation.
Combine with this the extra CP from premed, initiative, the lower energy cost of openers from dirty deeds, and the random CP setup grants you — hemo *comes out ahead in CP generation* (quite a shock to me).
But losing combat will cost you white damage. The question is whether Sub’s talents can make up for it. How much do we lose by speccing Hemo/Serrated blades/Deadliness? Let’s model Serrated Blades as a 4% damage increase, which is approximately its value against leather/cloth, assuming you have a bit of armor pen on from S3. Let’s also assume an 83% hit rate (7% from gear, due to S3 having a good bit of +hit), so 88% for combat. I’ve omitted the numbers because they look very clunky in here, but it turns out that you only gain 7.5 pre-haste, pre-armor DPS from going Combat as opposed to grabbing Hemo, Serrated, and Deadliness.
So Hemo/Seal Fate appears to be very similar in terms of white damage and CP generation. All that is left is utility.
First, the down-side. You lose Imp. Sprint, Imp. Gouge, Imp SnD, and a few points of avoidance. You also lose Expose Weakness, Imp KS (or quick recovery), and Vigor from the Assass tree. EW and Imp KS are a very big source of burst. However, the issue is whether stronger Hemo damage, combined with Dirty Deeds is enough to equalize this. It all depends on your playstyle.
What do you gain? Prep, Premed, Stealth Improvements, Dirty Deeds, and Imp Sap. You also avoid the drawbacks of Mutilate: No more awkward positioning requirements, no more needing the target to be poisoned to do decent damage.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:04 am
That CC chain you described is just as potentially problematic for mutilate rogues as it is ANY class.. While I do understand that the point of mutilate is in that the rare chance you finally do get to your target in a break in the CC’s, you can empty out some nice damage…. but thats what the second AR is for.
I get it, you pride yourself on sticking to the unconventional… thats hipster and cool, i bet you dig indy rock to, how novel… Get over yourself.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:20 am
It’s simply a game, who cares. Spec what you want. Less arguing, more videos!
November 6th, 2007 at 11:35 am
It will be always like this there will be AR/Prep. rogue whit raiting 2300+ and other AR/Prep. whit raiting 1500 this spec dont make the change if you know your not good whit rogue and just think rogue sux at every way but you still wana play a rogue and have S3 item just go farm primals sell AH and buy yourslef Arena Points on 3v3.. there is no spec. that will make you great player you can play the way you fell your stornger.
November 6th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
@32
I actually really don’t like indie rock, I’m a big 60’s - 70’s rock guy. Doors, beatles, dylan, and so forth. Wasting your time attempting to make personal attacks are quite childish.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Yes, please give feedback, opinions and critiques, not attacks towards authors that are sharing what might be to some, inspirational and to others ridiculous. If you don’t agree, fine. But don’t insult people because of there choice of game play. Life is to short.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
The idea that anything this guy could write would be “inspirational” is absurd.
This is the same guy that, in response to multiple losses, says IT’S OK THAT I LOSE AGAINST YOUR TEAMS BECAUSE I CAN BEAT YOU AND YOUR WHOLE TEAM 1V1 AND THAT’S ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME.
Ziss: Perhaps my previous response wasn’t clear enough. I don’t judge people by their past, only by present contribution. Rest assured that you will not see anyone behave on my site like the way you have described, and similar claims about Neilyo. This article was solid and inspired some very interesting debates. End of discussion.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
If that is true. Previous statements retracted. =(
November 6th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
@ 37
I have actually only stated something remotely close to your post when people say that I am bad. That accusation, to me, is a personal one, a 1 v 1 attack. So there for when I said I am better than them or can beat them 1 v 1, it made perfect sense.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Rot you really need to calm down… I’ve seen at least 3 posts bashing this guy by you and no one really cares so I’m asking you kindly to please stop the bashing
November 6th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
I bet the bandwagon spec of mages is either going to be: 17/0/44. 0/5/56. or 0/0/61. You are as insightful as you were on Eredar.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
@40
I’m perfectly calm. Sunken brings it on himself. I’m going to ask you kindly to read up a little on him. Check out some of his posts.
I don’t really care if you ignore everything I’ve said about him, but the fact is, having him “inform” the the readers of this site does nothing but make the players here worse.
Ziss: Please inform me then, how this article lead to the worse. I hand picked this article because the insane amount of people in our Ask Ziss! forums asking about AR/Hemo for S3. If it had been published under my name would your statement still hold true? I’m speaking with the intention of helping other players in mind so please don’t hold on your personal grudge at the cost of other players.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Everyone that reads what Sunken posts has the option to use his personal opinion or ignore it. No one will automatically be worse from reading his posts. What is making people worse is the fact that people are dissing each other and no one is getting positive feedback because everyone is caught up in a post war.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
@Ziss, there have been several items that we have disagreed on, and I’ve let you know I disagreed as well.
@NevaEvaStop the thing is, if someone portrays an article as well-written, there is a good possibility that the reader will think that the author knows what he’s talking about regardless of the validity of the statements. So yes, they can use their own opinion, but their opinion might not be about the content.
Ziss: Yes, but you have always offered valid points to back up your disagreements. So please do offer why Sunken’s points in this article are flawed aside from using his past. Thanks and I do appreciate someone with strong 2nd opinion as yours.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I’ll go through and point out specifics after class tonight if I have time.
November 6th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Good article. I hope to see more from you sunken.
November 6th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
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November 6th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Nicely said.
November 6th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
This post is essentially a critique of AR as a spec defining talent, with praise for mutilate builds tacked on with little justification. Given that the vast majority of rogues feel mutilate is not currently the strongest spec around (most mutilate players just say it is a vastly more enjoyable spec to play than combat maces… the fun factor at work), you really need to give us some more concrete analysis on why mutilate is a superior spec, even discounting AR.
If you really want to steer people away from AR/Hemo, I think you would be best off comparing that spec to 19/42/0 maces or its variants. That is by far the most popular spec, and the one that most people will be switching from. Comparing the loss of energy from sacrificing Combat Potency and Relentless with the gain in damage per energy from the new Hemo, and cheaper CS would be very edifying. So would comparing the loss in CP generation from Ruthlessness with the gains from 35 energy Hemo, Initiative, and Set Up.
Mutilate is a vastly different spec from Combat/Assass, and an even further stretch from Hemo/Combat.
If you are going to compare to Mutilate, at least give us the white damage, damage per energy, and combo point generation figures to back your numbers up. A lot of players feel that Hemo builds not only have 2x the cooldowns of every other spec, but also have palatable, if slightly lower, damage output and CP generation once the cooldowns are over.
Regarding your specific claim that teams will simply CC the rogue through AR, prep does have the virtue of giving the rogue some extra ammunition against CC. Vanish is very powerful if used to interrupt a casted CC, to negate a CC effect with a projectile effect, or to chain into a stun when you are rooted but your opponent is still in melee range. Sprint breaks root CCs and allows for quicker recovery after crowd control breaks. Shorter cooldown blind allows you to preemptively control an opponent before they can do the same to do. Improved sap does the same, especially combined with improved stealth talents. AR gives you more energy for kicks and gouges.
November 6th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
I agree AR gives you much needed energy to Shiv Druids as well.
November 6th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
My own (lack of) skill limits me a lot more than my talent spec. I’m a mediocre rogue, and I plan to go Mutilate because I have found it to be more fun in the past.
November 6th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
I agree with you bro, I have been mutilate for a long time and plan on staying it, mutilate all the way!!!
November 6th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Sunken’s article, while highly biased, raises a valid point. Mutilate damage is more sustainable than AR/Prep. You can CC a mut rogue and when that rogue comes out of CC, they will be as dangerous as they were before the CC. If you catch an AR/Prep rogue in a Cyclone/fear chain with their cooldowns running, you have essentially negated 50% of their burst. Suddenly that rogue has to be very careful when they use their cooldowns, because if they manage to get CC’d during their burst again, they are left with very little burst, compared to mut.
Your spec choice is going to depend on class setups. I think that an AR/Prep rogue is going to want to run with a heavy CC group, such as mage/priest or mage/druid. You can CC one DPS, land a CS on the healer and burn both of your ARs right off the bat to down the first target. 90% of this build is going to be based on timing and CC. The rogue needs to be smart on using BOTH of their cooldown chains, not just the second. When you start using prep defensively rather than offensively, things are going badly.
On the other hand, mut can do well on a similar team, but seems to shine more with a lock/druid setup, where they can sustain damage through CC and outlast a team.
Essentially, with the new changes AR/Prep becomes a very much improved choice for lower bracket play (2s, 3s), but with different strengths/weaknesses than mut. Each spec shines in different circumstances.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I don’t really agree with your points on why AR/Prep won’t be good for arena.
And this is my take from someone who read PvP pages often, watches videos, but only plays in 1800-1900.
You say that good teams will just learn to CC the rogue and stop AR from being a factor. Well, the rogue doesn’t play by himself, perhaps the rogues team will learn to counter spell the druid doing the cyclone, or the warlock fear, poly it, whatever, letting the rogue mash away at his or her target with AR. I don’t see why one team can CC the rogue but the other team can’t use CC?
You say only the top .2% of rogues will be able to manage their cooldowns well, and those who don’t will be easily dealt with. Perhaps. Then again the rogues who are not top .2%, like myself, don’t play against top teams… so I may not need to manage my cooldowns like the top .2% to get wins. It is not like I am going up against 2300 teams at 1800, I may not need to be a better player than I am now to be at 1900 if I just switch to a more scrub friendly spec.
Also I play mutilate now. I want to switch over maces because I am tired of some of the issues with mutilate and I may be able to go combat mace and still raid without having to respec twice a week.
At anyrate, I see prep/AR as being effective at low ranks because it is easy to play against unskilled players and do well at high levels of play because highly skilled rogues have a lot of cooldowns to maximize a rogues weak points, survivability and mobility as well as support from other highly skilled players on their team.
November 6th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Okay some of the things in this article I do agree with. Others I have a hard time believing. Your a daggers rogue so of course your going to say muti is better and a non scrub spec. But the reality of any competetive game is. If I can use it to win easier then most people will. The problem with AR/Prep spec is that you have to rely on cooldowns. Thats a problem now but with patch 2.3 hemo is buffed. Dirty deeds got a buff and on my rogue i’ll have 1650-1700 ap when i get my beginning s3 gear. So its very viable. Your also forgetting about random mace stuns and druids and priests now have talents that go against rogues critting them so it may be better to stack ap with hemo to do more sustained damage. I don’t really notice a difference between sinister strike combat maces and AR/Prep. You may get a 500 extra damage with ss compared to a hemo crit but you can get high crits with hemo as well. Also you are forgetting bout sap range. So this means easier cc. You won’t get seen by hunans as easily and you move much faster in stealth.
November 6th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
I currently compete in 2v2 and 3v3 arenas using a mutilate build (41/0/20) and had planned to continue with it in 2.3. However recently I’ve been pondering the viability of a 17/0/44 backstab build. From what I’ve read I’ll lose some damage output from backstab versus mutilate, however I feel this will be fairly minimal considering the AP boost provided from the sub tree and the fact that I wouldn’t actually be giving up duel wield (seeing as I don’t currently have it anyways). More importantly there would be a significant loss in combo point generation that premed wouldn’t offset. I’m curious to hear everyones thoughts on whether premed and prep along with the changes to dirty deeds, cheat death and shadowstep can offset the lost assassination tree talents.
November 6th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
You are very correct in the matter of ar/prep being extremely weak after cooldowns are up. However against most teams there will be a target that is squishy and you can blow up. However vs teams geared to outlasting this spec will not be good at all.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
the thing is, what ar/ prep loses in being weak after cooldowns, more than makes up for it in stuns and dazes
sure muti has only one cooldown to worry about but u can end up with less combo points
November 7th, 2007 at 5:23 am
i run a 2v2 with a rogue, i’m a holy priest
we can’t kill warrior/druid because he’s mutilate. plain and simple. with 19/42 or 33/28 (or variant), we stand a chance.
obviously with the warrior/druid dominating 2v2 bracket for season2, you will only see more of them in s3 and mutilate will still fail to kill those teams.
November 7th, 2007 at 11:39 am
@59
I would not recommend Mut in a 2v2 as the sole DPS. Since the rogue is the sole source of damage here, you do not want to rely on positional DPS, especially when there are even more 2 DPS 2’s teams. AR/Prep or Combat/Maces would far outshine Mut in this situation. You should seriously consider forcing your rogue to respec.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Well, AR/prep is the new Combat Maces. Who cares? I hate bandwaggon rogues and everytime i see them, i’ll beat them regardless of their spec. Did i consider AR/prep? Yep. Am i going to spec it? Probably. Am i doing it because some retard on forums said it’s the best? Nah. Might actually consider mutilate or a 25/0/36 hybrid spec instead just for kicks, or even ShS spec with the new cheat death. Way i see it, all warriors in arenas spec MS basically. Most mages are deep frost spec’d. Druids are mostly resto. Shamans are mostly elemental. Paladins were mostly holy, might be a bandwagon shift to ret now. So for most classes, there’s usually a bandwagon arena cookie cutter spec out there, and it works and its the class’ easiest way to earn arena points. Does it show skill? Not necessarily. But then again, most of WoW arenas isn’t about skill. It’s all about class setup, gear, specs, some experience, and then some skill. The fact that there is actually some variety in our trees strengths is good, Mut is strong in 5v5s, hemo/prep is good in smaller arenas, combat is still strong in all three. Most other classes (priests, warlocks, hunters excluded) are pigeonholed to 1 or 2 specs for arenas. In fact, even warlocks tend to migrate awhole lot more often to SL/SL as it’s been proven the easiest in arenas. Hunters in low rated arenas were BM, and realized later on that high end arenas can use MM and SV just as well. If the masses of rogue class want to spec AR/prep, more power to them, if it’s what makes them content. I know for a fact that it’s not the end-all answer to rogues problems, and that different specs can be just as strong.
November 7th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
While I appreciate the writeup examining the weaknesses of AR/Prep, you said very little about what makes Mute as good or better.
What about the positional requirement? This in and of itself is a huge disadvantage, especially in the smaller brackets. If you’re up against a SS/Hemo rogue or a Warrior in 2v2 as Mutilate, you’re horribly gimped, period.
To all the comments saying that Mutilate is better sustained damage than AR/Prep, both get Dual Wield spec, Mut gets many more CP’s and Find Weakness but AR/Prep gets a higher DPE CP generator and Serrated Blades which will be an amazing talent considering the buff to DD as well as the Armor Pen on the new gear. Sustained damage is not the reason Mutilate shines in certain situations. It’s the added burst you get over Combat or AR/Prep.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
I was 0/39/22 with Combat potency, prep, hemo, AR, mace spec before people even decided that this was a spec worth going :-P. Its been almost a year heh. It is my personal favorite PvP AND PvE spec.
November 7th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
What worries me about the 2.3 changes and the new “bandwagon” spec is that (as a Mutilate rogue) I’m pretty worried about how badly I’ll perform in 2’s against one of the new Hemo specs.
Since Mutilate is so weak against snares and evasion, it’ll be too easy to get locked down (read: be forced to go toe to toe) against a rogue using the new 2.3-popular specs and end up either dying quickly, or running my healer dry due to being on the losing end of the 1v1.
At my terribad rating (1630+) I can still shut down bad rogues who were on the previous bandwagon spec, combat maces. I’d get the opener and burn cooldowns offensively to keep the mobility advantage. Against the new specs though even a bad rogue will be confident in matching me cooldown for cooldown so I can’t keep control and then use prep to win it.
I think Mutilate will still have place on DPS heavy teams, but a “bandwagon” rogue could almost be a counter class.
November 7th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
IMO for 2s AR/Prep is be the best spec. However for 3s I think mutilate will still be really good for the share burst potential and easy CP generation it has. For 5s I’m pretty sure Full Combat will be the way to go. Just my 2 cents. If you’re good you can compete with any spec anways
November 7th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
In the earlier post about the dagger build, I think your biggest problem will be combo point generation. With mutilate even with less critting from resilience, you’re gaining 2 points per 60 energy. You’d probably just be gimping yourself unnecessarily for the novelty of a backstab build.
From what I’ve read from Jasi’s perspective, the priest on Ming’s site, running AR/prep would be viable with a priest healer because he can add effective DPS to complement your damage. Personally, I’m doubtful I’ll run AR/prep for my 2’s team with a holy priest; after my cooldowns are gone, I’ll feel too gimped if the other team is still alive. Then again, I’d probably just get destroyed with every rogue probably running a double DPS setup, getting the opener on me with a sap/cc on my priest or vice versa.
I agree there are pitfalls to following the trends blindly but it’s still just wow. The worst you lose is a handful of rating and gold. At the moment, I think what’s drawing people to this spec more than AR is that hemo got buffed a lot as evidenced by some of the numbers they’re seeing on PTR(albiet some are doctored). The idea seems to be you can get comparable damage even without AR which is just unfair but who knows.
All this could be for nothing if Blizz freaks out and nerfs everything again. :p
November 7th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
@ 59
Im mutilate as we speak, and we farm 99% of war/drood teams. Your strat is prob bunk, and you failing to win those matches have little to do with your rogue. It could be the case of a bad strat, or one of you (possibly both) are doing something horrible wrong. If you want a break down of how to beat that setup, especially as mutilate, check out my blog on gameriot.
I have an in-depth explanation of how to beat that team, flawlessly. Check it out if you are interested.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
/yawn, I have yet to see anyone one with any real points pointing out how mutilate is unquestionably better then AR/Prep. if you do the math on paper you will see that the mutilate damage is all sprint damage where is AR/Prep is constistant damage.
I have seen plenty of teams play with mutilate rogues. I played one for a bit. It’s a great spec for sprint damage. Since double DPS teams are very reliant on CC and Sprint damage Mutilate is great. for 1 dps 1 healer, it’s only So so. I AM NOT SAYING IT’S IMPOSSIBLE.
AR/prep is very much cooldown reliant and very much about timing those cooldowns perfectly. Giving the rogue twice the survivability against hard classes like Warriors and other Rogues. The added survivability allows your partner (usually a priest) to CC or otherwise decrease the second players combat effectiveness(IE: mana burns, Mind Control, Fear.) This giving you the upper hand and making your oppenents play from their heals (playing from a disadvantage.) Now you seal the deal by using Adrenaline rush and put them in an even worse position. AR/prep is great at surviving no one here is dumb enough to argue that. I am simply pointing out that people will spec what wins games, AND THAT IS NOT ALWAYS MUTILATE.
PS. to those who made the comment about me not being from BG9. you’re right I am not. I am from rampage the same battlegroup that produced the Huk’s. So don’t bring any sub par “I am BG9″ slang in here. I am willing to bet the competition is just as strong on rampage
November 8th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Sprint damage? What is that? I’m pretty sure you are pulling these numbers/facts out of the sky and have no general concept of what you are talking about. So….according to you, mutilate rogues only do damage while they are sprinting? I find that horrifically funny and hard to believe, being mutilate myself.
Ar/prep will still slack in overall sustained damage when compared to mutilate. Not sure where you got your numbers from, but they are so off.
November 8th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
you should know everyone has there own playing style, for me i’ve tried mutilate this spec worked very well, even tho i lacked in gear and weapon’s, the most anoying thing about mute is the fack that your lagging (400-500ms Aus playing on U.S) and its hard to get that mute off since you gotta strike them from behind… I’ve gone 30/0/31 checking how that works out if not then try out AR/PM..
that’s my 2 cents .. gl
November 9th, 2007 at 10:58 am
“# rot Says:
November 6th, 2007 at 8:22 am
When have you seen a shadowstep rogue do well?”
There have been some successful korean rogues as shadowstep.
Zure: It seems to me that the situation is more a case of everyone jumping ship to AR/prep, and anyone who dares question the spec is pretty much disrespected. I have already given some evidence as to how mutilate compares. In terms of damage per energy, hemo is only comparable to mutilate with the DD buff up and with a large AP margin.
Hemo needs to do at least 50% of mutilate damage to come close to its damage/energy, but unfortunately it doesnt. My mut char on test is 1490AP, 30% crit. AR/prep char is 1700AP, 24% crit. mut noncrits are averaging 2x 500 with FW up on leather. Hemo noncrits are averaging 450 or so without DD. Adjusted to 60 energy that is 771 damage compared to mutilate’s 1k, quite a large margin.
I will repeat myself; AR/prep is extremely reliant on AR for any sort of dps. One can argue all you want that mut is reliant on cold blood but the facts are that mutilate has the best D/E of any ability in 2.3, and scales best with resilience (seal fate is another story).
So if you want a reason to spec mutilate for 2.3? DAMAGE. Mutilate also has extremely good synergy with a healer due to QR. The only reason to spec AR/prep is if you feel that cooldowns are enough to win a match quickly, or if you need the survivability in a 2dps team (or 3dps). I find it ironic that Sunken himself would be much better suited as AR/prep playing with a warlock since the rogue is a much easier target in that team.
November 9th, 2007 at 11:17 am
“the most anoying thing about mute is the fack that your lagging (400-500ms Aus playing on U.S) and its hard to get that mute off since you gotta strike them from behind…”
Forget about playing daggers with anything over a 100 ping.
November 10th, 2007 at 12:08 am
I am so glad I went maces before everyone else did. Back when Fist or sword was the most popular combat build. I also tried this AR/Prep as you call it now. I was flamed for it too. Why is it that a bandwagon spec comes along these days?
I still think that this spec will be WEAK if it becomes the cookie cutter build. People will adjust and CC the hell out of the rouge. Just like alot of people got good at facing dagger rogues.
my .2 cents
November 10th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
I did some testing on the PTR with my rogue, full S2 gear. On those mobs in blasted lands that don’t die, mutilate averaged about 900 dps. With 30/0/31, the number dropped to about 840 or so. Numbers adjusted for DD.
On a res-capped priest friend of mine, mutilate was about 600dps vs 550. Numbers aren’t exact as it was pretty late last night and I didn’t write them down. I’m still deciding whether the sustained DPS boost or the CD spam will be better for my teams. Mainly focused on 3s and 5s (a non-gib group), so sustained damage is very important.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Hi sunken, just a quick question; Do you plan taking the mutilator as offhand for season3 or stay with 1.4 shiv ? ty
November 14th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Theres so many posts for AR/Hemo vs Muti specs.
What about AR/Hemo vs 19/41 combat specs? The majority of high ranking rogues are deep combat maces. Will we see many of them making the switch to AR/Hemo? Also what are your opinion on speccing into riposte? with the change with disarm do you think its worth putting pts into riposte?
November 17th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Mannoroth&n=Sunken
Explain?
November 18th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Rofl,nice spec. Bandwagon asshole
November 18th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
>>
lol liar
November 18th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
part of being skilled, is knowing how to spark. I dont believe in having 2.3k as a worse spec is the same as having 2.4k with the best spec.
Get over the “different is better” and the fact that you want people to copy you instead of ming/neylio, and we might just listen to you.
November 18th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
It’s sad…
frost mages… arms warrs… SL/SL locks.. and now ap/prep rogues. 1 damn viable spec == no fun 
November 18th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Btw this is really late but Sunken I don’t think your post on 67 really gave any relevant advice to post 59. He specifically stated he runs with a hpriest/rogue setup and your blog post refers to lock/rogue which obviously would work better against warrior/druid lineups.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
iM glad there is 1 viable spec its better than 3 average specs, have you seen the damage per energy hemo is doing now? If your serious about pvp I think having prep is the only way to go, buts that just me.
November 19th, 2007 at 2:05 am
[…] Isolee Ming Mortale Neilyo Nition Nitrana Sunken (“冲动预备是最适用于新手的天赋”) Xecks […]
November 19th, 2007 at 5:14 am
Way too funny, all that crap about AR/Prep and I am above the “non-thinkers”. So what does he do? He’s not only jumped on the bandwagon, he’s sleeping with the wagon driver of course.
Hypocrite, thy name is Sunken aka Todd.
November 23rd, 2007 at 6:20 am
@TrulyMad
Yeah, I also noticed that he jumped the bandwagon to the “unsustainable damage” spec that he finds so horrible in so many posts as of the past few weeks. However, I’m not here to disrespect him. I do believe this is a somewhat personal shot at Ming, however, and I agree with Rot on many points.
@Rot
Completely agree with you on almost every point you make, good posts, and I see where you’re coming from after reading some of the recent blog posts by Sunken.
I use to play as mutilate for a long time as well as many of you(ever since it was playable actually) but I have recently “jumped the bandwagon” to AR/Prep and found I like the change a lot. The burndown is actually much quicker now, and the CP generation is negligible in quick arena games, and in long ones my CP generation isn’t what keeps me alive. There are two huge issues I have found with mutilate. The first of which has been stated by pretty much everyone and that is positioning requirment. Not really going to bother saying anything about it since it’s a point that’s been beaten into the ground already. The second issue is that in higher arena brackets you come across people with too much resil with a spec that’s pretty reliant upon critical strikes and the damage they do.
AR/Prep, even without cooldowns still has high damage, especially with the increase to damage on targets below 35% health. Say what you will about it, AR/Prep IS easier than any other spec I have played, but ease of play is what lets me focus on using cd’s efficiently, helping out my teammates with CC more efficiently and focusing on my targets.
Anyways, that’s just my two cents.